As of January 9th, 2017
General Information | Benchmarks | Usage of Camp Properties | Financial
General Information
Power Point Presentation by Susan = wondered where we could access would like to share the link with a couple of guiders who couldn't attend a webinar? (week of Feb 13)
You can
view the webinar here.
Just something I thought of - have you every sent out a questionnaire to ask guider's why they camp else where. ex. Not GG camp close, not available for the dates you needed, better equipment, just wanted something different. (week of Feb 13)
A number of years ago this was done but certainly something to consider doing again.
When someone books a our camp property camps. Does Bookings and Safe Guide connect to make sure the Guiders going to camp have got safe guide approval? (week of Feb 13)
Yes.
When did Ontario Council realize there was a challenge with operating the camp properties? (original post of Dec 2016)
This issue is not new and Ontario Council has been grappling with what to do since 2007. At that time the collective deficit of the properties was combined through amalgamation and defined as an immediate problem to resolve. Prior to moving to the new way of work the Area Commissioners partnered with the rest of the Council members flagged this as a top issue as they knew the challenges that were happening in the Area and Divisions trying to sustain these properties. There were levies, closures, mandatory use, subsidy by Area and Division, offset of costs by Areas and Divisions and other supports to keep the camps operating. The situations were not sustainable in the long run for the Areas and Divisions, just as the collective deficit is not sustainable to Ontario and Nunavut.
Actions Undertaken
What actions have already been taken? (original post of Dec 2016)
Tough decisions were made in 2009 which resulted in the disposition of half of the owned/leased portfolio in order to lessen the deficit impact and also to have funds to put back into the retained properties as maintenance was required at all sites.
Since 2009 each retained camp property was provided with benchmarks to work toward self-sustainability through greater usage. This benchmark program was completed in 2015 and the results of this are within the data provided.
View Benchmark Reports.
Significant cut backs on expenses were implemented to restrict to basic health/safety needs to attempt to control costs. Each Local Property Extreme Specialty Community (LPESC) worked hard to keep costs low without losing the services the camp was known for.
Provincial programs were instituted at some camps, local events were encouraged to be held at Guiding properties, activity facilitation was implemented to entice Guiders to bring their unit to Guiding properties, rates were raised to provide necessary revenue. All of this combined did not raise the amount of revenue needed to offset the basic expenditures.
Organizational
Is guiding as a whole at risk of closing in Ontario? (week of Jan 2nd)
No, Guiding in Ontario is strong and we are seeing growth rate trends over the past three years. The interest in joining the organization remains strong. There are pockets of the province where declines are seen and there are various strategies in place to help them grow as well.
There is a financial a risk of not being able to afford to operate Guiding in Ontario if we do not stop the financial drain that the camp properties cause. The purpose of this current review is to address this before it becomes more problematic and causes impact to the programs and services being run for the membership.
We are in competition with Scouts Canada. I have had several girls leave Guiding in our town to join Scouting. Some don't last in either organization for long. Besides the boy factor, what is it that Scouting is doing that is attracting our girls away?
It is difficult to say what may draw some girls to join Scouts. Perhaps in their community Scouting matches more closely with the girls interests, such as being more active in the outdoors. In some cases the parents find it easier to enrol a brother and sister in the same organization.
Training
It's been a little while since I've taken the new leader training. Do the trainings talk about the importance of booking at Guiding properties, subsidies availability, camp locations? Many new leaders won't know the importance of supporting their local camps and the impact their unit bookings have if they are not told. (week of Jan 9th)
This is not a mandatory training component and is dependent on the trainer. A good suggestion.
Can a camp organizer position be created in each area where there are experienced leaders available to help newer leaders with camping and organizing camps? (week of Feb 6)
This is a suggestion that has been raised on many of the webinars and something that Ontario Council will review about the overall camping experience.
Can campership applications be added to trainings please? (week of Feb 13)
This will be provided to the Learning & Development team for consideration.
Closures
Are camps going to be "seasonally closed" on an annual basis? (week of Feb 6th)
Are certain camps going to be open for a guaranteed amount of time? It would be a poor use of volunteer time to put resources into the camp if it's going to close. Some leaders are reluctant to volunteer and help as they feel the camp will just be shut down. (week of Feb 6th)
No decision has been made as to what will happen on an annual basis. This is what this conversation is about.
General Comments
Firstly, thank you for the work put in to the property review, and the opportunity for guiders to comment. I hope we will have a constructive discussion across the province. (week of Jan 2nd)
I don't think there is any doubt that some camps need to be closed.
Camping is vitally important to our programming so it is important to get this right to make it sustainable for the future. Girls need the chance to unplug, get dirty, explore the environment and learn valuable life skills at camp. (week of Feb 6th)
We have to make sure access is evenly spread throughout the province. The information provided in the review must be analyzed objectively to find ones can be sold for the best return without affecting fair access. This money should be used to upgrade and protect the remaining camps. (week of Feb 6th)
If there are opportunities such as a cottage subdivision at Adelaide they should be explored. (week of Feb 6th)
Please be brave and consider everything. I don't envy the decisions but please make them with the future in mind, not past traditions. (week of Feb 6th)
First off, thank you for including us in the contestation about GGC camps here in Ontario. I participated in a webinar early on and just wanted to re-iterate my comments and questions from the call. I think that GGC camps here in Ontario are invaluable. I loved going to camp Woolsey as a kid and now am a leader in Toronto and I take my girls camping at least three times a year. My guides really love attending GGC camps, and we try to take them to a variety of different sites around the GTA. They like the idea that these are properties that are just for them, that every other site is being occupied by other sisters in guiding. As a leader, it is great to know that at the GGC camps we have the resources there (patrol boxes, firewood, tents, cooking equipment) at the camp. Our unit doesn’t own tents or equipment/patrol boxes we are young leaders and we don’t have any space in our apartments for Guiding equipment (we also don’t have cars to transport it). They are great for new units and leaders to provide for them the resources needed to run a camp. It is great to have the buildings at these camps as well, for younger units and for winter camps. I don’t know anywhere else where we would be able to find indoor camping locations in the winter that would suit our needs. (week of Feb 6th)
I have a long time tie to Camp Adelaide and am concerned for the camp and all camps throughout Guiding. When I was an Area Treasurer (before transformation), we ran our local Area Camp (Camp Adelaide) in the red. We budgeted $1.00 from each from membership fees as well as $1.00 per case of cookies - together with weekly summer composite camp income we always had enough money to run the camp as well as capital projects. We had year-round camp rental and year-round on-site maintenance employee to be sure the camp was kept in proper form and cleaned after each rental. Renters had to check-in and check-out and leave the sites cleaned and in the state they found them in. Lately, it doesn't appear there is any of this mainly due to the fact that maintenance has been cut back to the bare minimal. (week of Feb 6th)
These measures may restrict our unit access but the whole future of camping is at stake, and that should be the ultimate goal (week of Feb 13th)
I truly hope we can find the solutions to SAVE our camps! (week of Feb 13th)
Benchmarks
Can you please provide more information about calculations behind the 3 graphs and associated tables on the camp data benchmark pdf? (week of Jan 2nd)
- What is the equation for "days used"?
- Any Guiding group that used the property for all or part of a day counted in days used.
- What is % of girl membership?
- This is the percentage of girls registered in ON that used that specific Guiding property in that year.
- How are repeat users accounted for?
- They are not separated out by number of uses for the benchmarks. It is possible that one unit or one girl represents multiple components of any calculation.
- On the usage chart showing units used we did define the number of unique experiences to provide some scope.
If the Ma-Kee-Wa 2011 target was a deficit reduction of 30% and the actual was a reduction of 39% how does that not meet the target? Or is the graph actually of deficit and the chart title is wrong? (week of Jan 2nd)
The benchmark data was incorrect when originally posted but has now been corrected. Please check the data again.
Can the benchmark data also be presented as all camps/benchmark please? It would be easier to see patterns across the sites for the various benchmarks, and identify especially 'good' or 'poor' performers that maybe we can learn from. (week of Jan 2nd)
Yes, now when you click at the bottom of any individual camp benchmark document you will see the comparison chart for all camps.
One thing that stands out is that most of the campsites met (or exceeded) the targets for usage, but did not meet the targets for deficit reduction. That suggests there was a disconnect between the benchmarks. So, for example, in 2015 Adelaide's booking target was 104 nights (which was exceeded), but it still ran a deficit of 61%. Was it even possible for the camp to break even at the current pricing with 104 nights booked? Or to look at it in other ways, how many nights at the current pricing would be required to break even, or what price is required to break even if the camp is used for 104 nights? (week of Jan 2nd)
That is a circular question to answer as it depends on the type of use. When the financial benchmark was set it was cognizant that many properties were hoping to institute large events and greater provincial programming. These would bring in high revenue each day in comparison to a unit using it for that same day.
In evaluation of the benchmark this type of change was not significant enough to generate the financials that had been anticipated.
USAGE OF CAMP PROPERTIES
Why doesn’t Ontario Council aggressively market to other organizations/corporations to use our properties? (original post of Dec 2016)
I would love to hear more about if the various camps or if Girl Guides in general is interested in using the camps for non-guiding groups to increase year round revenue. (week of Jan 2nd)
Can we encourage rentals to other preferred carefully supervised partners such as schools, colleges, universities, churches professional summer camp companies, company training facilitators. This income could help the bottom line and keep the rental costs down for girl guide members and improve facility equipment. (week of Feb 13th)
In order to do this with enough impact to lower our deficit, we would need to consider surrendering our land tax status. To generate the amount of revenue necessary to recoup the land tax status losses and to cover our current deficit, we would have to be running a fairly substantial business. We would have to decide if we wish to be in that business. At this time we can only use the property for the delivery of the Guiding program.
Could locations be rented out to the YWCA or other camps during the summers? (week of Jan 2nd)
Girl Guides of Canada in Ontario is exempt from paying land taxes under this specific clause in the Ontario Land Tax Act.
- Property owned, occupied and used solely and only by The Boy Scouts Association or The Canadian Girl Guides Association or by any provincial or local association or other local group in Ontario that is a member of either Association or is otherwise chartered or officially recognized by it.” (Ontario Land Tax Act)
We have sought legal opinion on what this truly means and operate in accordance to the limits identified within this statute.
What does National state we can do with our properties? (original post of Dec 2016)
GGC holds real property for the purpose of supporting programming for girls.
Real Property is:
- Land and buildings, including easements and rights of way, that are owned by GGC;
And
- Land and buildings or portions of buildings that are leased by or licensed to GGC.
GGC will ensure that all of its real property:
- Meets standards established by GGC for its real property or classes of its real property from time to time;
- Provides a safe, accessible and inclusive environment for those using it;
- Represents a prudent use of GGC’s financial and human resources;
- Is managed, operated and maintained in compliance with standards, codes, regulation and legislation in force in the jurisdiction in which it is located; and
- Where required, is available for the purposes of housing employees and volunteers who provide administrative, operational, management and leadership support for the development and delivery of girl programming.
In advancing this Position Statement, GGC acknowledges:
- The legacy and commitment of the visionary Guiders who ensured opportunities for girl programming through the acquisition of real property in the past;
- The dedication of today’s Guiders in engaging with girls to participate in a variety of great programming opportunities;
- Its commitment to providing responsive and contemporary programming for girls in a safe and inclusive environment.
(Approved by the National Board on March 11, 2016)
Our units tend to support camp properties by getting our units out on a rotational basis to a different camp property within our region of the province, regardless of the site fees. That resulted in more girls wanting to try out summer camps after being at the property with the unit. We are blessed with girls who are so keen to sell cookies, that the cost is really not a barrier for us. We can subsidize a weekend camp so that parents only pay $20 per child, most times. Our unit funds cover food, the rest of the rental fees, supplies. Our challenge is scheduling the Guiders so that at least 2 are available for a camp. (week of Jan 2nd)
Thank you!
Is it possible to have more provincial or community camps at local properties to encourage use and bring in revenue? (week of Jan 2nd)
Certainly a possibility to consider.
Some of the camp events draw in huge numbers of girls to the properties. Can we promote these kinds of events and push to have them occurring more frequently and/or at more of the properties? Can any of these events be replicated at other properties by means of a 'camp in the box' or pre-packaged camp that has all of the programming/menu/etc prepared for replication elsewhere? (week of Jan 2nd)
It is true that these camps draw in large numbers which girls and Guiders enjoy. Such events are very useful for introducing a Guider and her girls to camping in a non-threatening way. They do require a big investment of volunteer time, so we need to be prepared to step up.
It is a bit of a double-edge sword though. If one weekend at one camp draws in 400 girls which may be approx. 40 units then those 40 units aren’t camping at other Guiding camps for a weekend experience.
If this is the methodology that Guiders and girls prefer then consideration for opportunities to deliver in this way will & must be considered.
If there is concern over Guiders comfort level running weekend camps for their units, can we promote the camping resources that are available on the website? There is a lot of great information available that would allow guiders to assemble a 'pre-packaged' weekend camp by piecing together the materials. (week of Jan 2nd)
Promoting resources is always a good solution for experienced and inexperienced Guiders.
What about contacting Universities/colleges that run courses in resort development/management type of thing and offering a project to review the properties for development potential etc.
This is a potential consideration.
Would it be possible to work with scouts to share properties and better utilize available land? (week of Jan 2nd)
This conversation has begun with Scouts Canada and is a potential option.
I also wonder if there has been any discussion with the provincial government on parks management? (week of Jan 2nd)
At this time we have not spoken with the provincial government but will add it to the potential conversations to be had.
The indoor/outdoor sheets have challenged me, but i think I have it now. It looks like the columns on the left of the camping season are for all camps, and the ones to the right for the camp in question. Is that correct? (week of Jan 2nd)
These have been updated for more clarity and understanding.
Likewise for the usage charts it is not clear to me what the percent of usage is in comparison to the capacity of the site. Again it is not clear to me where there is more room for growth. (week of Jan 2nd)
We have just uploaded the overall benchmark data document that the individual sheets were pulled from. This has the percentage of capacity data broken out for your review. To access these please open any camps individual benchmark sheet and click on the button in the lower right hand corner.
What are the numbers of girls/units camping using GGC properties vs other properties? Does the usage of GGC properties represent most/some/not much of camping done by GGC units? (week of Jan 9th)
There are just over half of the experiences at GGC properties that have been processed through Safe Guide. This does not represent the number of units as some would count multiple times at either GGC or other facilities.
How are the usage numbers gathered?(week of Jan 9th)
They are gathered from the property booking data submitted by the Guiders booking the facilities.
Is there a way to streamline summer camps so that it is easier for volunteers to organize it? (week of Feb 13th)
If you are referring to the provincial programs then we welcome volunteers to be as engaged as possible. If you are referring to the composite or event camps then these are solely operated by volunteers.
Could a power point training be provided with how to get the event up on the website, how much time you should budget? (week of Feb 13th)
This suggestion will be forwarded to the events team.
How to get the camps advertised within Guiding? (week of Feb 13th)
Through E-news, website, word of mouth, returning campers.
How to get approval for non-member girls to get involved with camps? (By having more camps which non-members can attend it will show girls some of the great opportunities Guiding has to offer and will hopefully increase membership) (week of Feb 13th)
Any event/camp can have non-members attend as long as the Safe Guide procedures for such are followed.
Do leaders of Guiding and their families count as 3rd parties? I'm sure it would mean a lot to some Guiders to be able to have their wedding at one of the Girl Guide camps. Perhaps a wedding edition article could be added to the Guider Magazine (week of Feb 13)
Yes, they are not delivering the Guiding program, therefore they would be 3
rd party users.
It would be great for you to collect information on how many people make a booking request but can’t get a spot at GGC camps. I went on at 6:00 AM to book a winter camp, but didn’t get a spot. We then made 4 more booking requests before finally getting a spot at camp Teka in March. The stats I am sure would inform you as to how many people want to camp at GGC sites! (week of Feb 13th)
It is true that there is more of a demand for indoor camping space on specific peak weekends than we have space available. Unfortunately the rest of the time the properties sit empty.
I was really disappointed to hear that only ~50% of units go camping. This number seems way too low, I know our unit goes camping at least 3 times a year. Do you have the information available per unit? (week of Feb 13th)
Many units do sleepovers, which is not included in this data. We do have the statistics on what activities units received Safe Guide approval for. This would not be posted as public information.
How is it counted if multiple units attend camp together? (week of Feb 13th)
It would be counted as one experience regardless of the number of units.
I know that camping is a part of the pathfinder program what is the breakdown of this statistic by branch? (week of Feb 13th)
One of the pieces of
data on the websiteshows the branch statistics for rentals of Guiding camp properties. The data for non-Guiding property use is not available as it is not recorded in that manner within Safe Guide submissions.
Instead of thinking about which camps we should cut, I think we really should focus on how to get units out camping in Ontario. (week of Feb 13)
We agree. Camping is a vital component of our program. The question is whether we need to own property to ensure that experience is provided to the girls.
I know you said that a lot of units are going to other locations where programming is provided (museum sleepovers, conservation authorities etc.) One idea would be to create SUPER camp programming. This could be run in Sept-Oct and Jan-Feb and April-May-June similar to programs such as “Just between friends” at Wyoka, “Chil Fest” and Mosaic! You can fit a ton of campers at some of our larger camps and provide programming for the units during the day and in the evening. If the girls are doing programming during the day you could even provide leader training for the leaders bringing their girls! The other months of the year can be used for individual unit camps. And some smaller camps that are doing well financially can be used as sites for individual unit camps all year. This would be a great way to provide a ready to go camp for leaders who are busy or don’t have much experience planning camp. You can provide buses for the units and girls will get to experience activities that they may not get to experience in a unit camp (high ropes, cross country skiing). I think this type of program would excite girls and leaders! Just think how awesome it would be to have camp wide games or a camp-wide campfire! For food the camp could be catered, the units could bring their own food or you can provide a milk carton with food for the leaders to prepare for the girls (and get the girls to help!). The camps could maybe even have themes based on what resources they have on hand. Let’s work to get kids out to camp and explore the outdoors and enjoy the awesome properties we have in Ontario! (week of Feb 13th)
That is certainly an option to be considered and is listed in the
webinar.
I would like to suggest thatGuiders be encouraged more actively tovolunteer at summer camp. This would cut some of the cost of paying staff as well as making the staff team more diverse and better reflecting the general leadership of the organization. Rather than asking for the volunteer help just when staffing issues arise, recruiting and placing volunteers in positions before camp starts. This may behappening already at some of the provincial camps and it would be good to hear about how the volunteer participation has been working. Suggestions - include in e-newsletter with a link to apply; consider a different title for the volunteers rather than Camp Counsellor or Food Services (perhaps Volunteer Guider), encourage more mature adults to come with a peer; perhaps add an incentive for Guiders who bring their own children or who encourage girls from their Units to attend; connect more closely with the Property volunteers. By the way, I think the provincial camping programs sound great and hope to take part as a volunteer this summer. (week of Feb 13th)
Thank you, these options can certainly be considered.
Information regarding where units were camping, for example,provincial camps, boy scout camp or girl guide camps - where did you collect this information from (week of Feb 13th)
This information came from the Safe Guide submissions.
FINANCIAL
Actual Costs
What is the collective camp property deficit? (original post of Dec 2016th)
The collective deficit since 2011 from all camp properties is:
- 2015 = $778,440
- 2014 = $764,401
- 2013 = $638,343
- 2012 = $634,493
- 2011 = $721,086
I see that several measures were taken to reduce the deficit. I would like to see a breakdown on which measure (for the remaining camps) was the most effective at achieving this goal i.e. how much money did soliciting local unit use raise, how much did streamlining infrastructure costs save, etc. (week of Jan 2nd)
No camp increased its unit rental usage enough to have a significant impact to their revenue lines. The financial lines for this changed due to increasing the fees versus greater use.
Each camp took strident measures in cutting back variable expenses and negotiating better fixed expenses. This has seen significant reductions but each camp is now operating on a thread-bare expense budget due to revenue.
I would like to have copies of the past 6 years audited financial reports.
These can now be found on the
Camp Property Review Data page of the website.
I've been looking at the links and financials and trying to come up with sustainable solutions, however, there isn't a lot of information provided about the debt and how it's incurred. It doesn't make sense to do a lot of fundraising if the properties have a large interest loan. It would be better to find a way to re-mortgage the property at a low-interest rate and pay off the high-interest loan. (week of Jan 9th)
There are no loans or mortgages on any property.
There was the projected costs over 15 years and another cost. Is this previous debt for the camp?
Based on the current deficit this is projected over the next 15 years if no changes are made.
Is there interest on any of the debts? If so how much? (week of Jan 9th)
No, the debts are covered by ON Council reserves.
What is the amortization? (week of Jan 9th)
The amortization line is the annual value of capital projects that are applied to that years’ operating statements. Capital project costs are divided by 10 or 20 years depending on the type of work and over that period of time 1/10
th or 1/20
th of those costs are applied to the operating budget. It is an accounting principle.
Does the camp just have to be self-sustaining or do they have to pay back previous debts? If they have to pay back debts, what is the time frame and is interest charged (if any)? (week of Jan 9th)
ON Council has not applied debt repayment to any camp. The amortization/depreciation does need to be applied to the self-sustaining equation.
Are capital projects in a separate budget from the day to day use budget? (week of Jan 9th)
The capital budget would be separate from the operating budget.
Can the camp annual budgets be published please? Both the capital and operating. (week of Jan 9th)
There is currently no capital budget outside the immediate Pinchin work approved for any camp. ON Council has put a moratorium on this spending until after decisions are made. You can find these values in the online Pinchin reports.
The 2015 operating statements have recently been posted on the
website. This will provide you with the scope of budgeting for each camp.
Is money being set aside for capital projects for the camps currently? (week of Jan 9th)
No. There is no surplus revenue to support capital projects at this time.
How is the budget set for each camp? (week of Jan 9th)
The local property community puts forward their anticipated expenses and revenue for the upcoming year. These are then reviewed by the provincial property teams for viability and any questions go back to the community. If changes are required then these are made at that point. Once all answers are received they are submitted to ON Council for approval as part of the overall provincial budget. This is then submitted to the National Board for final approval.
In the operating statements for the properties, what exactly is being depreciated? (week of Feb 13)
Depreciation is similar to amortization. We have used two different words to distinguish what was on the property books prior to 2007 (depreciation) and those that are since then (amortization). The depreciation costs/cycle would have been determined by the prior Council entity that was operating the property. In turn, Ontario Council has the schedule and applies the depreciation accordingly. Once the 10-20 years, depends on what the Area or Division Council defined, expires then this is no longer seen on the operating statements.
How long has this depreciation cost been an operating cost? (week of Feb 13)
Depreciation has always been part of the operating statements for properties that had depreciable items as of July 1, 2007.
What are the auto and marine category? What kind of expenses fall under this category? (week of Feb 13)
This is for camps who have boats, tractors, vehicles on their sites in order to fulfill the work needs of the site.
Can 2017 budgets for the camps please be posted? (week of Feb 13)
As budgets are just a guideline for spending we do not typically publish them except to the local committee. The 2016 actual operating statements are on the website for comparable as most spending has been frozen.
Is it possible to get a copy of the actual costs for each camp? I am looking specifically at Kienuka in Dunnville. (week of Feb 13)
These are now posted on the
website with the other data.
How are the upgrades for these camps from the assessment report going to be financially feasible? How is it going to get paid? (week of Feb 13)
That is the question we are seeking solutions for at this time. The costs outweigh the revenue available.
How can Doe Lake, with a Pinchin report of $1,280,214 of work to be done, Cash outflow of $1, 661, 398 over the next 15 years giving a combined Total of $2, 941, 612 over the next 15 years? Even if that total is amortized over 20 years it would require $147, 080.6 annually to cover these costs. Yet in the 2015 operating costs for Doe Lake, it is only $3, 386. How was this number calculated? (week of Feb 13)
It is not applied to the operating costs until the money has been spent.
Streams of Revenue
Why don’t we cash in our investment portfolio? (original post of Dec 2016)
Ontario Council has a healthy investment portfolio that exists to maintain year over year costs at as low a cost point as possible for the overall membership. However, the impact of the camp property deficit could deplete the entire investment portfolio within 7 years. This is a risk that Ontario Council cannot allow to happen.
Could you please provide more information on the financial status of the properties i.e. revenues from units camping, summer camp programs etc. It is unclear to me what the revenue streams are which are more lucrative. (week of Jan 2nd)
Budgets
It's hard to comment on the financial situation of these camps without knowing the budget - why is there a deficit currently? Where does the money go, andhow much is coming in from various sources?
Standard Revenue Streams:
- Unit site rental = with the exception of 4 camps this is the main source of revenue
- Summer camp programs = at 4 camps this is the main source of revenue
- Local events = such as outdoor activity days that also provide revenue to the camp property.
- Donations/Fundraising = this is a primary source of revenue at one camp but at most camps this is a very low secondary source of revenue.
- Surplus from events = if a Guiding group runs an event that has a surplus at the end they can earmark this for the camp property. This is asecondary source of revenue for some camps.
- Crest and Equipment Sales = for all camps a low secondary source of revenue.
Standard Expense Streams:
- Fixed, high-cost expenses at all camps
- Hydro
- Heating
- Water (compliance with government legislation)
- Insurance
- Variable,high-cost expenses at most camps
- Site services (payment to employees/contractors to maintain site)
- Snow clearing
- Landscaping
- Plumbing
- Electrical
- Waste Removal
- Custodial
- Building maintenance:
- Painting
- Repairs
- Washrooms
- Kitchens
- Bedrooms
- Pest Control
- Equipment maintenance
- Septic systems
- Drinking water systems
- Tents and Shelters
- Program equipment
- Recreational water facilities (pool or waterfront)
- Fire Safety and Security
To see details per camp on the impact of these various lines we will be posting the December 2015 year end operating statements for each camp property. You can review these documents on the
Camp Properties Data page of the website.
Potential Funding Sources
Is it possible to request funding from the federal government to support the operational costs associated with the camps? This could dovetail nicely with Canada's 150th by encouraging ecological education, land and nature stewardship, and citizenship that reflects Canada's heritage (including those of FNIM populations) and values. (week of Jan 2nd)
Funding through grant applications has certainly been explored but very few grants are available for general operating costs. For capital projects either maintaining or development there are grants available which we would avail should we continue operating camps with these needs.
Has any consideration been given to creating an annuity account from bequests to help pay for the cost of camp maintenance? (week of Jan 2nd)
Although we have not moved into this type of specificity one of the considerations is an ongoing fundraising campaign.
Is it possible to request funding from the federal government to support the operational costs associated with the camps? This could dovetail nicely with Canada's 150th by encouraging ecological education, land and nature stewardship, and citizenship that reflects Canada's heritage (including those of FNIM populations) and values. (week of Jan 2nd)
Funding through grant applications has certainly been explored but very few grants are available for general operating costs. For capital projects either maintaining or development there are grants available which we would avail should we continue operating camps with these needs.
Is it possible to give blanket fundraising approval so that ambitious leaders who are willing to do the work to raise funds for the camps aren't bogged down with paperwork for fundraisers? (week of Jan 9th)
Each fundraiser needs explicit approval on an annual basis. For example: If you were going to have a bake sale each week in the course of a year then you could apply under one application for that recurring activity.
Is there a way to make the fundraising approval process easier for Guiders who want to raise money for camps? (week of Feb 13th)
Fundraising process is consistent across the country in order to ensure due diligence is completed before entering into any agreements. Raising money for camps needs as much scrutiny as any other fundraising project.
I have looked through the frequently asked questions and have some fundraising suggestions. I find that as an organization, Girl Guides is very weak in fundraising. I know that guiding is built on tradition but I think it might be the time to move beyond cookie sales and explore other options to keep a robust guiding program in place. I think we need a comprehensive fundraising strategy to ensure that we keep our camps open and our programming well funded. (week of Feb 13th)
We will add this to consideration as we explore the various options.
One option that we should explore is annual donation requests to Guiders, trefoil guild members, parents andguiding alumni. I know that my university asks me for donations annually and so do many organizations that I support, but I have never been asked for a donation from guiding (although I have donated time and money through my activities). I sure that there are well-heeled guiding families out there that might be willing to donate with a little bit of enticing. (week of Feb 13)
This is a double-edged sword. If we reach out to solicit monies for camp operations there are many other programs we would not be able to then reach out for this type of funding. For example; campership, fee subsidies, etc. We need to balance where money is reaching out to serve the mission of Guiding in the best possible manner.
There are many grant opportunities that we could apply to in order to support our camps (week of Feb 13th):
Capital Grants
- Ontario Trillium Foundation Capital Grant
- Max Bell Foundation
- Schad Foundation
- MEC (trails/accessibility)
- Rick Hanson Foundation (accessibility)
- Honda Canada
- Home Depot
- Oak Foundation
- Rasch Foundation
- Joyce Foundation
Program Grants
- MacLean Foundation
- Goodlife Kids
- Lawson Foundation
- TIDES Canada
- Salamander Foundation
- Canada Post
- TD FEF
- Chawkers Foundation
Thank you for this extensive list. Once we have made a decision on the long-term viability of our properties then we can look into the appropriate foundations for support.
We could also explore some options for fundraising events held at camps by engaging local politicians/businesses. (week of Feb 13th)
Thank you for this suggestion.
Engaging our alumni with a welcome back weekend or something like that in the summer to bring families back to guiding. (week of Feb 13th)
Thank you for this idea.
What about exploring a summer only membership for guides and marketing our camps more extensively to expand our camp audience. (week of Feb 13th)
This would need to be explored more fulsomely with National but a possible suggestion.
Winter/fall/spring family camps (week of Feb 13th)
Some of these are now run & certainly the program could be expanded.
Offering use of the grounds local schools/youth organizations for day programming during the week for a fee. (week of Feb 13th)
We would need to look at this in partnership with our land tax status.
We might benefit from contracting a fundraising professional to create a comprehensive plan for us. (week of Feb 13th)
Should we go this route then having professionals on board would be a necessity.
I know that GGC is strapped for cash, have they thought about other possible revenue streams? For example asking GGC alumni to donate money or asking for partner sponsorship? I am sure companies would be want to donate to an organization that promotes girl empowerment! (week of Feb 13th)
These streams have been considered but it is very difficult to ask for money to maintain a deficit due to lack of usage of a facility.
Increasing the rental fees is NOT going to bring in the income needed. Our unit for one has decided they can't afford the raised pricing and did not want to rent this year. (week of Feb 13th)
We agree.
Could there be a (small monetary) penalty given to units that don’t camp (and are within driving distance of a GGC camp)? Can we reach out to these units and ask them why they don’t go camping? (week of Feb 13)
Penalizing groups for implementing the Guiding program does not seem like a wise move on behalf of Ontario Council.
Use of Gain on Sales
If a camp is closed can that community (the camp is in/area/or even Ontario Council) allocate the funds to be used at a nearby camp.
If property is sold, the revenue from the sale will be used 1) provide funding for camp operating and development should some camps be retained, and 2) in any case, provide funding for camping and outdoor programming across the province.
Will camperships or other subsidies be available for youth members attending a unit camp at a location other than a GGC property? (week of Jan 2nd)
If properties are sold, would GGC be open to extending camperships to non-guiding properties? (week of Feb 13th)
The campership program would be reviewed in partnership with any final decisions being made & the impacts the decisions would have on an individual girl.
If the camp does close, what will happen to funds raised for that camp? (week of Jan 9th)
The monies would be reinvested into camping programs or experiences at other properties whether Guiding owned or not.
Provincial Camping Programs
Will the Camping Programs (summer camp) need to run self-sufficiently like other events? If summer camps can’t run self-sufficiently what % of annual income will camps loss in rental fees. (Can the camp survive without summer camp being run at that location?)
If the provincial camping programs continue the financial model would need to be reviewed to determine the cost return on them. Should money be diverted from operating property into programs it is possible that a deficit would be allowed as the ‘service’ component provided by Ontario Council. At this time the camps that have significant provincial camp programming would not be able to sustain their expenses without such revenue coming in.
If summer camps can’t run self-sufficiently what % of annual income will camps loss in rental fees. (Can the camp survive without summer camp being run at that location)
If the provincial camping programs continue the financial model would need to be reviewed to determine the cost return on them. Should money be diverted from operating property into programs it is possible that a deficit would be allowed as the ‘service’ component provided by Ontario Council. At this time the camps that have significant provincial camp programming would not be able to sustain their expenses without such revenue coming in.
Cost Reductions
Much of the required maintenance work could be done by construction students in various disciplines as school projects. The project proposals would have to be carefully pitched, but schools are always looking for projects, and although we may not get the super-refined ideas of experienced professionals, the cost to GGC would be nil, so it should be a win-win. (week of Jan 2nd)
Has guiding reached out to local colleges and universities looking for practical projects for students to see if they would be willing to work on rehabilitation of some properties? (week of Jan 2nd)
This is a great partnership idea and some of the properties have done this type of reach out to both corporate and educational programs.
Can we make savings on maintenance, should we be investing in green projects to reduce operating costs? Can we find partners for this and can we then build it into programming too? Make sure we exploit any government programs for green energy too. Being brave and courageous is in our DNA (week of Feb 13)
Great suggestions! We will put them into the mix once we consider the long-term viability of our camp properties.
Another option is to consider whether a private company could a better job of running summer camps, maybe with a substantial discount for girl guide members. Is our name a problem for attracting outside participants or some weeks only would by titled girl guide camps. (week of Feb 13)
Looking to third parties is an option being considered.
What exploration of technology has been made to enable reduction of operating costs? For example updating the septic system with biomass generators which would provide fuel for heating/cooking (and an awesome learning opportunity for girls!). Addition of solar/wind power to offset hydro costs- potentially eliminate them since chances are more power would be fed to the grid than used due tot he nature of use of the properties. I recognize these have a capital expense to start up but could be factoring in through routine maintenance and of course would need a thorough cost-benefit analysis. These technologies are being used to support rural villages in 3rd world countries, why not apply them at home? Many organizations would be very happy to support local- Engineers Without Borders, Enactus to name a couple. (week of Feb 13th)
Thanks for these suggestions.
Have we considered proposing with business partners in the various communities with properties to provide services to repair and restore our properties in exchange for a tax receipt? We could match this up with a PR campaign to raise both our partners and Guides image across the country as an extra benefit to our for-profit partners. Alternatively, have we considered an onlinecommunications campaign through CrowdFunding sources like GoFundMe to raise funds? Or perhaps raising the fee for Guides and dedicating the extra $10 per year to properties funding (with nothing towards National or Provincial operating expenses). (week of Feb 13th)
All good suggestions, some of which have been tried and others new for consideration.
I understand there are not the members now as there was then to support the funds needed for our camps. Our camps are "for the girls" and therefore we should be changing our breakdown of cookie & membership funds towards the camp maintenance. i.e. units could take less per case of cookies ($2.00) - Membership fees could allocate $2.00 per member towards camp maintenance. The reserves could be used for the necessary repairs in the camps. A closer look at our office expenses/rentals could also be adjusted to allow our camps to remain open - the most important part of Guiding. Can we find cheaper areas to rent for our National & Provincial offices? Can we cut back on paid staff (utilize more volunteers to do staff work - just we did when we were Districts/Divisions/Areas? Can we cut expenses in National/Provincial budgets? (week of Feb 13th)
All of these reviews have been done over the past 10 years & have resulted in the disposal of all administrative buildings and some camps. The larger question here is whether the girls who are not using our camp properties should pay to help financially support them.
Could we think of ways to fundraise? For example asking for small donations to provide more camperships and to make camp properties more accessible. Or partnering with a run? And raise money that way? (week of Feb 13)
If we continue to operate our camp properties this is certainly an option.
Can you share with me how much extra revenue has been earned over and above what we earned before merging over to the OCA standards? Say for the last 2-3 years. (week of Feb 13)
Girl Guides of Canada, ON Council was one of the founding members of the OCA and, in turn, have always had our provincial camp programs accredited through the OCA. These standards do not necessarily increase or decrease our membership but define we meet specific standards.
Can you tell me if someone was to donate funds or set up an amount to be given in their estate, is there any way these funds can be designated for a specific camp and not put into the general pot? (week of Feb 13)
Yes, the donations need to specify the purpose and where they wish the funds directed.
Can GGC-Ontario Council set up a new initiative to send out a mailer to all Guiders in Ontario, stating if they wish to donate, now or later to a specific camp they can and you will ensure the funds will be included in the go forward budget and put against the upcoming expenses as stated on the documents provided online? This is another way to generate money and respect the wishes of the Guiders donating and keep the money within Province- Camping. (week of Feb 13)
This is a double-edged sword. If we reach out to solicit monies for camp operations there are many other programs we would not be able to then reach out for this type of funding. For example; campership, fee subsidies, etc. We need to balance where money is reaching out to serve the mission of Guiding in the best possible manner.
Has it been considered that we discontinue our association with the OCA and work to our own needs and upgrades seeing we are not generating any additional income from being a member with them? Seems a lot of "work" had to be done at the camps to meet their (OCA) standards at the startup, but seeing we cannot rent out our camps to outside groups due to insurance costs, then what was the value add in the first place? I am not being a negative Nelly, just a bookkeeper who does not justify the costs they have caused us to incur instead of dealing with our camps in a more refined and used/not used forum. (week of Feb 13th)
We would need to know more specifics in relation to this question. OCA standards are safety standards and, in turn, we would never want to jeopardize the health/safety of anyone at our camps.
General Suggestions
The cost of renting a site may discourage many units from bringing their girls to a GG camp property as compared to camping at a local KOA campground, for example. We need to find compelling reasons for units to use the properties and to encourage Guiders to get their girls camping. A lot of it is mindset on many fronts. (week of Jan 2nd)
Very true. If we can’t afford to provide the amenities that equal the cost then it is quite justified that units are moving to other facilities that can.
Do things to attract units to camps. Wyoka has its high ropes course and climbing wall, but even having things such as orienteering course or camp specific scavenger hunt (& put materials online) would be easy to put in place but inexpensive! (week of Feb 13th)
Thanks for those ideas.
One big issue for us is Transportation to camps. Our parents expect us to provide a bus to camp (as leaders we also appreciate booking a bus since the majority of us are young and we don’t own vehicles). Bus costs are very high, which limits us to going to camps that are further afield. We really want to be able to go to camps like Doe and Adelaide and go canoeing and tripping with our girls. We had to cancel a weekend at camp Adelaide this past fall because the parents would not pay the high cost of the bus (they also would not carpool the distance). Would it be possible for girl guides to partner with a bus company? They can offer us cheaper rates and we can give them business! (week of Feb 13th)
We have had discussions with bus companies in the past which have not led to any significant savings. However, once we determine the outcome of the long-term viability of the properties these are conversations that can be entered into again.